CopperSpice License Question

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seasoned_geek
Posts: 123
Joined: Thu Jun 11 2020 12:18 pm

Re: CopperSpice License Question

Post by seasoned_geek »

The licensing decision has really hosed a lot.

Didn't they go so far as to pull 5.15.x from the download areas as well? I haven't followed all of the discussion [edited] on the mailing list. I know of at least one major company moving back to Qt WebKit and I think 4.8 to get around all of the licensing and support issues.

Tukka (however is name is correctly spelled) wants everyone to buy a license no matter what. Been peddling FUD for years.

Without a stable API you won't see a flood of projects moving here. So far all of my clients have opted to skip looking at CopperSpice any further because of that one thing.

One would have considered it, but they could not find full-on Android support. Without Android as a supported platform they couldn't use it.

barbara
Posts: 281
Joined: Sat Apr 04 2015 2:32 am

Re: CopperSpice License Question

Post by barbara »

As we have mentioned it is our goal to release a stable CopperSpice API, just not at this point. If some company needs this we encourage them to contact us directly and discuss their requirements in full detail. However, I will add that we are seeing a flood of new users to CopperSpice, they just do not all post on this forum.

Moving back to Qt 4.8 is a strange and extreme option and if they wish to do that they should really consider CopperSpice and again, reach out to our team.

At the present time we do not have Android support however this is something on our road map. There are much better ways to add Android support now than how it was implemented years ago. We are happy to discuss this with anyone looking to work on this task. I will mention that since CS is a true open source project it is easy to contribute. The other alternative is to sponsor this work through a subscription and someone on our team can address it with a higher priority.

Most of the current work the team is focused on is being directed by our current user base and those who have a subscription. We welcome any user who has special requirements to reach out to us.

crispina
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Nov 17 2020 2:57 pm

Re: CopperSpice License Question

Post by crispina »

I know of at least one major company moving back to Qt WebKit and I think 4.8 to get around all of the licensing and support issues.
How is Qt WebKit licensed? I seem to remember that QtWebEngine is LGPL 3 and as CS is LGPL 2.1 I am assuming that it can’t be used within CS?

I am a little surprised that a product can change it license from being LGPL to closed source but I guess this is allowed if you own it.

What is the situation with QtCreator? Could this go closed source?

CandL
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Oct 14 2019 6:37 pm

Re: CopperSpice License Question

Post by CandL »

I am hoping that seeing multiple simple projects built using libs that use Qt helps overcome the FUD factor.

The VTK port will in my opinion be a HUGE vote of confidence. The kitchen sink as is just that, while it is impressive it is also overwhelming. People like small manageable bites.

What might be interesting is building the exact examples Qt uses.... how better to display compatibility

crispina
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Nov 17 2020 2:57 pm

Re: CopperSpice License Question

Post by crispina »

Maybe the CopperSpice Youtube channel should have a video about migrating from Qt to CopperSpice using a single application example and PepperMill.

barbara
Posts: 281
Joined: Sat Apr 04 2015 2:32 am

Re: CopperSpice License Question

Post by barbara »

. . . should have a video about migrating from Qt to CopperSpice
Our videos are bit more about C++ and those we have done about this CopperSpice and DoxyPress tend to be less popular. We are also not sure a video would help since the process can be different for each project. The amount of work involved really depends on how the existing code base. We have worked directly with various companies and somethings the entire process is less than one day.

Have you looked at the Migration page in the CS Overview documentation? We have documented the steps which are as follows:

Run PepperMill
Update your CMake files ( or create them )
Make any necessary source code changes ( shown in our docs )

https://www.copperspice.com/docs/cs_overview/cs-migration.html

As users find new things we should add this page will be updated.

Barbara

barbara
Posts: 281
Joined: Sat Apr 04 2015 2:32 am

Re: CopperSpice License Question

Post by barbara »

crispina wrote:
Tue Jan 12 2021 10:28 am

How is Qt WebKit licensed? I seem to remember that QtWebEngine is LGPL 3 and as CS is LGPL 2.1 I am assuming that it can’t be used within CS?

I am a little surprised that a product can change it license from being LGPL to closed source but I guess this is allowed if you own it.

What is the situation with QtCreator? Could this go closed source?
You are correct about the licenses. Since CS is LGPL 2.1 we can not legally use QtWebEngine. QtWebKit has issues and too much baggage. We would enjoy having a few developers look at using Blink and do this correctly.

We agree that it is unusual for a company using LPGL to re-license something as closed source. Sort of implies they do not respect the open source community. The CopperSpice team holds the belief that open source software should be as permissive as possible.

Yes, they do have the rights and there is nothing stopping them from making QtCreator closed source, right now it is is GPL 3. We are looking at our options to provide some UI designer for CS users.

Barbara

CandL
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Oct 14 2019 6:37 pm

Re: CopperSpice License Question

Post by CandL »

I feel like I need to clarify my earlier comments, about Copperspice examples.

The Kitchensink app is indeed a mashup of what seems to be 8-10 Qt examples.... so it definitely proves capability. My comment has to do with the target audience.

In a previous life I had to motivate engineers to use Qt. To make things manageable I found the Voidrealms Youtube channel Bryan Cairns does an EXCELLENT job of covering topics in 20 min or less.

So my intent is to create simple, focused examples that can be consumed along with your lunch, and then put away.

I will also likely contact Bryan and see how he feels about us using his examples....using his videos and CS gitub ... could be a really good introduction for people.

crispina
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Nov 17 2020 2:57 pm

Re: CopperSpice License Question

Post by crispina »

Have you looked at the Migration page in the CS Overview documentation?
Yes I migrated my Qt personal diary project called EventTalker (https://github.com/crispinalan/) some time back in anticipation of the Qt licensing changes. I found the process straight forward and it did not take much time to do. However, I did have to get my head around things like the CopperSpice network classes (see the Network classes forum post on this) and some issues with the SQLite driver (see the Copperspice 1.7.0 SQLite QString Blob forum post on this). I found that the CopperSpice way of doing signals and slots very logical as is using the CMake build system. Most companies should find the migration process straight forward especially as CopperSpice provides custom subscription support.
We agree that it is unusual for a company using LPGL to re-license something as closed source. Sort of implies they do not respect the open source community.
CopperSpice is a viable alternative for me. I am wondering how larger open source projects like KDE and Krita are going to deal with this licensing change.

Update: I have just listened to a UK Linux podcast entitled Tyler's Techcast #8 | KDE Roadmap, GNOME 40 And Linux Mint 20.1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtX5J7YrI4s&t=131s) which seems to indicate that KDE could use the Qt version following a Qt LTS release.
Yes, they do have the rights and there is nothing stopping them from making QtCreator closed source, right now it is is GPL 3. We are looking at our options to provide some UI designer for CS users.
I had not realized that QtCreator could go closed source like Qt LTS.
We are looking at our options to provide some UI designer for CS users.
I have looked at KDevelop, juCi++ and Geany as possible alternatives to QtCreator.

I found Kdevelop (https://www.kdevelop.org/) to be geared to the KDE project and it looks like it is built using Qt. To import a CMake application you use Project->Open/Import Project and select the CMakeLists.txt file. This opens the project with its contents. I was able to build a CS project. There are downloads for Linux, Windows and Mac.

juCi++ (https://github.com/cppit/jucipp) is interesting as it is designed for C++ development and uses the CMake build system. I was able to compile juCi++ from source on Debian 10 but had an issue with Ubuntu 20.04 LTS due to a dependency version. After playing around with it for a while I came to the conclusion that it is great for C++ gtkmm development on Debian.

Geany (https://www.geany.org/) has an integrated terminal and I have been able to build CopperSpice projects using cmake and terminal commands.

Code: Select all

mkdir build
cd build
cmake ..
make
The Geany IDE uses "tags" files for its autocompletion (https://wiki.geany.org/tags/start). With Linux, these tag files are copied to (./config/geany/tags/) to enable code completion. There is a very good "tags" file for Gtk 3.0 and so I have found Geany great for C and GtK 3.0 Linux development given that it possible to add pkg-config commands with the set up compile options.

There is a Qt 5.1 tags file and so it should be possible to create a CopperSpice tags file. This would then provide users with a bespoke IDE alternative to QtCreator although there would be no what-you-see-is-what-you-get (WYSIWYG) GUI designer like Qt Designer just editing the UI descriptions in XML format.

With Linux, I had to compile the Geany source code using the Autotools build system (https://www.geany.org/manual/current/#source-compilation) to get the latest version 1.37.1. Although it is a Gtk 3.0 application there is a Windows executable (https://www.geany.org/download/releases/) and a Mac version.

Geany looks like the best of the bunch to me for CS development especially if a CopperSpice tags files is created. Hopefully my experiences of using these IDE's may be helpful to other users. I had a quick look at the CodeLite and CodeBlocks IDE's but I have not used these for projects and so cannot comment on these.

What other alternative options are you considering for CS users should QtCreator go closed source?
Last edited by crispina on Sun Jul 11 2021 2:34 pm, edited 9 times in total.

barbara
Posts: 281
Joined: Sat Apr 04 2015 2:32 am

Re: CopperSpice License Question

Post by barbara »

CandL wrote:
Wed Jan 13 2021 10:12 am
The Kitchensink app is indeed a mashup of what seems to be 8-10 Qt examples.... so it definitely proves capability. My comment has to do with the target audience.

I will also likely contact Bryan and see how he feels about us using his examples....using his videos and CS gitub ... could be a really good introduction for people.
Actually about 20 of the 30 examples in KitchenSink were adapted from Qt examples.

In terms of these videos, it is not our policy to endorse videos about another product. My concern is users may learn "programming" which is not relevant to CopperSpice. If you would like to migrate his examples to CopperSpice, assuming the license is compatible, we are very happy to publish these on github.

Thanks for looking at ways to help promote CS.

Barbara

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